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Fellowship of the Unashamed

  

KDE Wallpaper 1280x1024

Score 27%
Fellowship of the Unashamed
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Fellowship of the Unashamed
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Fellowship of the Unashamed
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Link:  http://
Downloads:  40
Submitted:  Nov 20 2003
Updated:  Nov 21 2003

Description:

"Fellowship of the Unashamed"

"Out of Africa comes a story of bravery and boldness in Christ that we in America need to hear. There was an young African pastor who was caught in the struggle between an Islamic rebel force and the existing government of his nation. When his village was overwhelmed by rebels, they demanded that he renounce his faith. He refused. The night before they took his life, he wrote the following lines on a scrap of paper:"


"I am part of the "Fellowship of the Unashamed." I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I've stepped over the line. The decision has been made. I am a disciple of His. I won't look back, let up, slow down, back away, or be still. My past is redeemed, my present makes sense, and my future is secure. I am finished and done with low living, sight walking, small planning, smooth knees, colorless dreams, tame visions, mundane talking, chintzy giving, and dwarfed goals!

I no longer need preeminence, prosperity, position, promotions, plaudits, or popularity. I don't have to be right, first, tops, recognized, praised, regarded, or rewarded. I now live by presence, lean by faith, love by patience, lift by prayer, and labor by power.

My face is set, my gait is fast, my goal is heaven, my road is narrow, my way is rough, my companions few, my Guide reliable, my mission clear. I cannot be bought , compromised, detoured, lured away, turned back, diluted, or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate in the presence of adversity, negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity, or meander in the maze of mediocrity.

I won't give up, shut up, let up, or burn up till I've preached up, prayed up, paid up, stored up, and stayed up for the cause of Christ.

I am a disciple of Jesus. I must go till He comes, give till I drop, preach till all know, and work till He stops. And when He comes to get His own, He'll have no problems recognizing me. My colors will be clear."




Changelog:

Added third (transparent) paper.




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 Who dunnit

 
 by Soyburg on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

I always thought Bob Moorehead wrote this great christian poem. I guess I was wrong.


Reply to this

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 Re: Who dunnit

 
 by yetanother on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Actually, it looks like you were right. Nearly every hit in a google search http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Fellowship+of+the+Unashamed%22
attributes this to Dr. Bob Moorehead in a book called "Words Aptly Spoken". Guess timbrown ought to give credit where credit is due, especially since the made-up story slanders Muslims.

On the other hand, according to http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/paradox.asp, Moorehead was forced to resign from his church because it was found that he had molested many male members of his congregation. Hmmm, no wonder timbrown prefers the African pastor urban legend.


Reply to this

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 This is so weird

 
 by 0xdeadbeef on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

The nerve of citing an african pastor who didn't want a different faith forced on him after christian missionaries did the same, or even worse things to the native African people. Talk about hypocrisy.

Believe whatever you want to believe, I don't care. But this sort of stuff makes me want to puke.


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 Re: This is so weird

 
 by megatux on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

Where you are mistaken is that Christian missionaries don't force anything on anyone. Any person who does this cannot call themselves a 'Christian' missionary, because that is not at all what the faith is about.


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: This is so w

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

While I can certainly be wrong, I think that they perceive any kind of mention of Christianity as *forced* on them. This idea of "force" comes up many times in threads related to my papers, even though they could just as easily avoid them. After all, the PC lie is that one cannot be held responsible for one's own choices...coffee/McDonald's/Lawsuit, tobacco/smoking/lawsuit...etc.

From what I understand from my exposure to PC thought while working at a local university, the "politically correct" mindset is that everyone has the "right to not be offended" by anything. The message of the cross is definitely offensive to those who are perishing, according to Paul's epistles.

So, I deduce that presenting anything that disturbs their sleepwalk to destruction as *forced* on them.

Well, like Paul, I choose to keep my hands free of the blood of any man (or woman for that matter). When they stand before Christ, (and they *will*) they will have no excuse.

Funny. If they saw a guy on the street offering them 1 million bucks, I believe they take it. Christ offers them eternal life and the joys of heaven and they reject it -- to their horrible loss.

-- Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: This is so w

 
 by gtg990h on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Okay, now you're crossing the line. I have no problem with you enjoying your faith and trying to share it with other similarly minded people. However, you're getting into a level of evangelism that is simply not appropriate for this site. Practice your faith, but refrain from criticizing those who don't.

I used to be irritated to see people pointlessly flaming you for posting positive messages like you do, but you are starting to make me believe that you are no better than them.


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: This is so w

 
 by Brandybuck on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Crossed the line? How? No one is forcing you to read any of these comments. You did so because you chose to. That you now feel somehow offended is a matter between you and God, not Tim.

"And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." Luke 7:23


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by gtg990h on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

I'm not offended. I'm just saddened that someone, who until now was displaying a perfectly healthy enthusiasm for his faith has degenerated to now attacking people who don't agree with him.


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

*attack?* how did I do that?

By stating something as propositional truth? If so, then you have illustrated my point; that anything past "opinion" is offensive...and that is at the core of political correctness and the postmodern worldview. It's also a lie straight from the pit.

we know that Christopher Columbus lived. We know that Abraham Lincoln lived. This is based on Historical documentation. That same historical documentation tells us that Jesus Christ really lived and was crucified, yet was seen by many as risen Lord.

I hear this so often "believe what you want but keep it to yourself". Sorry, but part of what Christ tought was to NOT keep it to yourself. So, you want me to either deny the faith or be a hypocrite.

I'll chose to live out my faith.

I'm sorry if you are offended, but in a way not, because the fact that you are so obviously upset is a sign that you possibly are resisting what you may deep down feel uncomfortable resisting.

God's blessings to you in all sincerity,

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html


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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

*"And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." Luke 7:23*

Thanks for the encouragement, Bro! I'm thinking of what the disciples said to the Lord when He asked them "And what about you?..." The answer they gave was "Where else would we go, You *alone* have the words of eternal life!"

Blessings to you,

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

*can't prove*

Well, then as I posted elsewhere here, can you prove George Washington really lived? Was he a myth? What about Lincoln, or J.Q. Adams?

Once you discount historical/legal *evidence* you enter an intellectual-free zone where you can ultimately *know nothing*.

Are you saying this is the case?

Again, archaelogy silenced the critics about King David of the Old testament really living (another 'myth' is now known to be true). The same for King Solomon. Does this make one bit of difference?

They used to criticize the accuracy of the book of Isaiah up till a number of decades ago when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found and dated to be from the time that Isaiah actually lived....they demonstrated that the Old Testament we have now is virtually unchanged. So much for "transmission errors". Not one major teaching is effected...only a preposition here and there. Minor stuff. There are 24,000+ manuscripts for the scriptures, including fragments. Homer's illiad doesn't have more than maybe 600 but no one questions the Illyad.

Again, as I've stated before, could it be that you really know better but simply refuse to face it? No, I'm not talking "proof" because "...without faith it is *impossible* to please God* (Hebrews 11:6) But there is ample evidence upon which to make an *intelligent* decision...provided PRIDE doesn't get in the way.

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: This is so w

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"The message of the cross is definitely offensive to those who are perishing."

DEAD WRONG! Passing off myth as fact is what is offensive.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: This

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

...was Lincoln a myth? was George Washington a myth? Did John Kennedy really get shot? Does historical documentation mean anything? Even secular historians record that Jesus Christ lived, died and was seen alive again.

Of course, if you want to demand that the supernatural doesn't exist (such as the 'Jesus Seminar'), you can do that, but it's not an objective starting point...unless you know for a *fact* that it doesn't. The problem is you would need the sum total of all knowlege to posit that as an argument.

I don't think either one of us have that. Do you?

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Name three secular historians who verified this. No, wait, name just one. Oh wait, you can't do that either. You can not name a secular historian who saw these things because there were no eyewitnesses, were there?


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: This is so weird

 
 by gtg990h on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Are you joking? Its well-known the level to which missionaries forced Christianity upon Africans and Native Americans. In fact, there is a literary movement within Africa right now that is resentful of the missionaries and the changes the forced upon African culture.


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: This is so w

 
 by Flanders on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Okay..we'll forget about the crusades, the inquisition etc...


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: This is so weird

 
 by karlandtanya on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Ooh--this sounds like fun:

Here, let me try:
"Christians do no wrong".

Proof:
Christians are those who follow Christ.
To do wrong is unlike Christ.
QED

Niiice and tidy.


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: This is

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Nope, Christians, including myself fall short often. But there is a *big* difference between that and unrepentant murder of abortionists, etc.

Before Christ, I had a rage problem. Do I still get upset? Yes. But rage is no longer the pattern of my life. Big difference.

It's not 'nice and tidy'. It's not about perfection but it IS about a change in direction in a person's life.

-- Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: This is so weird

 
 by Brandybuck on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

There have indeed been incidents of people claiming to be Christian who have forced beliefs upon people. But they have been rare. A bit more frequent have been some who have imposed their *culture* on others (clothing, language, etc) in ignorance, but even these incidents are uncommon.

However, I am not aware of any Christian missionaries in the last century who have forced anyone to renounce their existing faith under penalty of death. And I don't think you could find more than two examples from the previous century.


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: This is so w

 
 by 0xdeadbeef on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

I was talking about the colonial time, when Africa was flooded with christian missionaries from all over Europe.

I marvel at your trust in christianity, but christians are humans as well, and humans do bad things from time to time. In this special case, forcing one's faith on others and killing those who don't comply (and some of those who do) has a lot of tradition. Try googling for witches, heretics, cathars etc. This got better during the last couple of centuries, agreed, but there were incidents even in the 80's (the massacre in Ruanda). I am not trying to say that christianity is the only society with blood on their hands, but I seriously doubt that christian ethics the way they were and are practiced are superior to all others.


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: This is

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

Brandybuck might be able to explain this better, and after all you are responding to him, but I think you are erasing the line between ChristenDOM and ChristianITY.

ChristianITY is and is ONLY a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It's not an institution, such as Catholicism. It has to do with being twice-born or "born again". It has nothing to do with buildings, liturgy or anything else. The Bible teaches that "no murderer has eternal life..." (1 John). Anyone who goes around killing people in the name of "Christianity" is a phony. If I call myself a "feminist" and go around doing things that contradict feminism, would you still believe I'm a feminist?

Christendom has to do with all the rest...I can understand the confusion between the two..."christianity" as a word has become to mean anyone who isn't Jewish or Muslim or (as commonly thought of by many) as "anyone in America". That is false.

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: This is so weird

 
 by Linuster on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

If anything Christianity was forced off, not on, this anonymous author, because Africa is a predominantly Muslem continent.

But pretending your point was valid. The man who 'forced' his religion on Africa did so only because his religion was 'forced' on him by his parents, whose religiont was 'forced' on them by European rulers, whose religion was 'forced' on them by the Roman Empire, whose religion was 'forced' on it by early Christians, whose religion was 'forced' on them by the apostle Paul. So he really isn't responsible for his actions now is he?


Tolerance is a two-way street.
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: This is so weird

 
 by gtg990h on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Africa is not a predominatly Muslim continent. The heavily populated countries of North Africa are mostly Muslim, but the rest of Africa is much less so. Overall, the Christian population of Africa is in the high 300 millions, while the Muslim population is in the low 400 millions.


Reply to this

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 re: crap

 
 by mobtek on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

this is a crap excuse for a wallpaper and a crap excuse to peddle your prejudice here.


Reply to this

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 How "tolerant..."

 
 by slackdude on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Where is the prejudice that you so describe in this wallpaper??? I read the entire thing and didn't see one bit of bigotry. All I saw was a statement by someone who isn't afraid to share what he believes. The emphasis here is SHARE. Whether you decide to take it or not that's your choice. But I think the poster should be given the right to say whatever he wants, just as many others have about many other things. This double standard by many that have constantly responded to Tim's submissions in a negative way goes COMPLETELY against the "tolerance" that many of these same people claim to uphold.

All I can say is that for those who have issues, live up to the true meaning of "tolerance." Or just agree to disagree, and move on. If this bothers you, then don't click on it. Constructive criticism never hurt anyone, but there is never a need to post something derogative or insulting. He isn't FORCING you to make it your wallpaper, yet you are eager to force your insults upon him for the beliefs he upholds.

Heck, I've seen many of the "parodies" of Tim's work. I don't agree with those "parodies" and yes it bothers me. How do I deal with it?? I move on...nothing important for me to see. EVERYONE should be free to submit whatever they want, regardless of what the stance of some people are.


Reply to this

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 Re: How "tolerant..."

 
 by kaha on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Hear, hear. Well said.

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute this quote to Voltaire."

-- Avram Grumer, rec.arts.sf.written, May 2000


Reply to this

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 Re: How "tolerant...

 
 by gtg990h on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Its not the prejudice in the wallpaper, its the prejudice expressed in the story and the subsequent post.

For the record, I think people who flame him right off the bat are wrong. He has every right to post these, though, maybe we need catagories like other theme sites so people can ignore them.


Reply to this

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 2 things

 
 by noname1 on: Nov 20 2003
 
Score 50%

There will be a final judgement!
Eveyone will participate, wheather they believe or not!


Reply to this

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 Re: 2 things

 
 by kaha on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

My invisible man in the sky can kick your invisible man in the sky's butt.


Reply to this

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 re: 2 Things

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"There will be a final judgement!
Eveyone will participate, wheather they believe or not!"

Yeah see, our religious opinions are FACT, simply because we accept them as FACT. You are supposed to pretend along with us that they are FACT. Anyone who does not participate with us in the pretense that our religious opinions are FACTS, are simply being intolerant. Further, you should ignore Miss Manners completely, when she says to not offer your opinions, of any kind, unless asked.

And yes, there will be final judgement. You either worship the Ancient Bronze Age God of the Hebrew goat herders, or you end up in hell. Just like when the mafia says, you either pay us protection money or we break your mother's legs. God is so powerful these are the methods He has to resort to.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!
Reply to this

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 Facts and opinions

 
 by Linuster on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Actally, there is no neat separation between facts and opinions. Facts are just opinions in which people place more confidence. Descartes showed that the only thing one can really be sure of is his own existance. So what is 'fact' to you might be 'opinion' to someone else, and vice versa. People speak of opinions all the time as if they are facts (i.e., debates). So it makes no difference whether someone portrays something as a fact or an opinion.


Reply to this

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 Re: Facts and opinions

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

True, that is why DNA tests can not be used as evidence in criminal cases. The test results are only opinions. Now I see why there is no such thing as facts. Thanks for your help. Before your post, I had no idea that facts did not exist.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Facts and op

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

*no such thing as facts*

Are you stating that as a *fact*?


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Facts and op

 
 by Linuster on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Both of you are misunderstanding what I said. Maybe you've never had an introductory course in philosophy. All I was saying is that it is impossible to be 100% sure of anything.

EXAMPLE

Argument: I have seen a site named www.kde-look.org. Therefore, the site must exist.

Refutation: It is possible that you are living inside the Matrix, and so nothing you actually see is real (this is what Descartes basically said).

Notice that I am talking about what is possible, not what is probable. With the DNA test, it is possible that someone planted false DNA at the crime scene. But this is improbable. That is why guilty verdicts in the U.S. are based on "probable cause".

I was trying to defend the real Tim, but he obviously didn't read my post carefully and took it to be "postmodern nonsense."


Reply to this

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 Re: Facts and op

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

No linuster, I was replying to imPLEZdrown527 .


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Facts and op

 
 by Linuster on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

OK, but realize that when he said "there are no facts" he was satirizing me.



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 Re: Re: Facts and op

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Ok, DUH! Sometimes it's hard to tell.


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html


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 Re: re: 2 Things

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

It's not true because we believe it (that's New Age/Postmodern nonsense), we believe it because it is true.

Contrary to the example of nonsense faith, Christianity is open to verification through biblical and non-biblical historical accounts as well as archaeology.If you want to disprove the Bible and the Christian faith, that's where to go...but eventually you will have to deal with the secular historical accounts of the fact that Christ lived, died and yet three days later was seen as a risen Lord.

Noone has been able to do that in 2000 years. make a name for yourself; be the first.

Thanks,

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: re: 2 Things

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

1. You can not prove a negative.
2. There are no non-bibical historical accounts, nor archeology, that proves the myth you believe is true. Go to the library. What section is the Bible found in? The history section? I think not, as the history contained in the Bible is wholly & completely inaccurate. So it is placed in the religion section, along with the other myths, where it belongs. Were the history contained in the Bible factual, you would find it in the history section.
3. You say you believe it because it is true. Do you also take slaves from surrounding nations, as god tells you to in your Bible? Will you sell your daughters into slavery, as your god tells you to in your Bible? Do you stone adulterers, as god tells you to in your Bible? Must women not speak in your church, as Paul said, in your Bible? That's right. I didn't think so. Now please find some other forum to spread your propoganda.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: re: 2 Th

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

*can't prove*

Well, then as I posted elsewhere here, can you prove George Washington really lived? Was he a myth? What about Lincoln, or J.Q. Adams?

Once you discount historical/legal *evidence* you enter an intellectual-free zone where you can ultimately *know nothing*.

Are you saying this is the case?

Again, archaelogy silenced the critics about King David of the Old testament really living (another 'myth' is now known to be true). The same for King Solomon. Does this make one bit of difference?

They used to criticize the accuracy of the book of Isaiah up till a number of decades ago when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found and dated to be from the time that Isaiah actually lived....they demonstrated that the Old Testament we have now is virtually unchanged. So much for "transmission errors". Not one major teaching is effected...only a preposition here and there. Minor stuff. There are 24,000+ manuscripts for the scriptures, including fragments. Homer's illiad doesn't have more than maybe 600 but no one questions the Illyad.

Again, as I've stated before, could it be that you really know better but simply refuse to face it? No, I'm not talking "proof" because "...without faith it is *impossible* to please God* (Hebrews 11:6) But there is ample evidence upon which to make an *intelligent* decision...provided PRIDE doesn't get in the way.

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: re:

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

By the way, putting the Scriptures in the "religion" section doesn't make it myth. The bible is a collection of 66 books (39 OT, 27 NT). Poetry, wisdom literature, prophecy and History.

I wouldn't expect to find it in the "history section". It's more diverse than that.

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: re: 2 Th

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Provide a piece of historical or archeological evidence that Jesus existed. Oh that's right. You can't. There is none. There is much archeological and historical evidence for the existence of Lincoln or Washington, so we know for a fact they lived.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

I've partially answered this in my post below...but again, I'll be happy to do so.

I think the greater question is, are you really interested in knowing the evidence is there and if presented with it will you accept it or find a way to dismiss it?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and get it for you.

-- Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

I will answer your question, if and only if, you answer mine:

You say you believe it because it is true. Do you also take slaves from surrounding nations, as god tells you to in your Bible? Will you sell your daughters into slavery, as your god tells you to in your Bible? Do you stone adulterers, as god tells you to in your Bible? Must women not speak in your church, as Paul said, in your Bible? All of these things are taught to be moral by the God of your Bible. Do you base your life on these teachings as part of your religion or not? Yes or No?


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re: 2 Th

 
 by kaha on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Actually, he is mentioned in the writings of Tacitus.


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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re: 2 Th

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

And the state of Georgia is mentioned in the book, "Gone With The Wind." Please note the fact that a real state is mentioned in a fictional story, does not mean the fictional story is true.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Yup. Tacitus. Roman historian, considered to be one of the more (most?) reliable.

Unlike "Gone with the Wind", the works of Tacitus are not fiction...we can also talk about Josephus and Turtulian.


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html


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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re: 2 Th

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Tacitus wrote about Jesus in 110 AD.
So what is your point? He writes, many years after the fact, repeating what others were saying. He was no eyewitness, so whatever he wrote proves nothing. Same with Josephus.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

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 Tacitus

 
 by Soyburg on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Tacitus wrote about Jesus in AD 116, some 80 years after the alleged death of Jesus. There are some facts which suggest that he based his mention of Jesus on secondary (christian) sources.

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

I read only one book by Tacitus. "Germania" was his account of the Germanic tribes. It is inaccurate or wrong in a lot of places. Which might be due to the fact that Tacitus never travelled to Germania. That's what I call hearsay. Not really fiction, because he only reported what he heared about that place. He didn't make it up but write down what he had heard about it. He was a better historian when he wrote about Rome, but then there are those who think that he had a tendency to include a bit too much social gossip in his works.



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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re: 2 Th

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"if the history of ancient Egypt is so well chronicled, where is it written who built the great pyramid. It's construction is attributed to Cheops (Khufu), but this is an educated guess. Stones found with his cartouche on them are known forgeries, and there are no hieroglyphs on the walls."

I posed no questions regarding pyramids. Read the above posts to see what questions were posed and please stick with the issue, or either state evidence, based on the archeological record, how the entire nation of Egypt, and all who lived within it, just happened to miss the fact that a Pharoah died in the middle of a parted Red Sea. Please explain how such a miraculous event was recorded nowhere and discussed by no one, and given that this is the case, how the myth it is based on, can now be considered factual. Read carefully the question that was asked, then pose your answer based on the question that was asked please.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

timplzdrown527:

*So what is your point? He writes, many years after the fact, repeating what others were saying. He was no eyewitness, so whatever he wrote proves nothing. Same with Josephus.*

So, I guess that all the history my professor tought me was not relevant because he wasn't an eyewitness???

--never mind....From your previous posts, especially regarding percieved "wrongs" in the Biblical record, you appear to be so angry at God that any evidence I show you (and that you indeed have been shown here by others) will be thrown away out-of-hand.

You started by simply asking for evidence...stating I couldn't. Then when I told you that I would be happy to and asked if you would accept it, you conditioned answering that question based on non-related issues.

In short, you will never be willing to accept anything I or others have been telling you about history, archaeology and the Bible.

If it were given you, you would try to discredit the source, or something along that line.

There are two kinds of people who doubt. Those who doubt and are seeking to believe and those who doubt and simply want to continue proving their disbelief is valid.

So, again, never mind...at least until God begins working on your heart.

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html


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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re: 2 Th

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"So, I guess that all the history my professor tought me was not relevant because he wasn't an eyewitness???"

It is not I who makes the claims about Tacitus or Josephus, but those very same historians, who taught your history class. The facts of history, as we understand it today, are accepted due to evidence found in the historical record. I am sorry that you believe Tacitus used the same methods to write/investigate his history as modern day historians do, but your belief in this is quite incorrect.

"--never mind....From your previous posts, especially regarding percieved "wrongs" in the Biblical record, you appear to be so angry at God that any evidence I show you (and that you indeed have been shown here by others) will be thrown away out-of-hand."

HAHAHA! HOW WRONG YOU ARE! I would no more be mad at god than I would be mad at Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Why get mad at that which does not exist?

"You started by simply asking for evidence...stating I couldn't. Then when I told you that I would be happy to and asked if you would accept it, you conditioned answering that question based on non-related issues."

Incorrect, I have posed those same questions to you numerous times in this forum. Why do you keep avoiding answering them? You show up on this website making all kinds of outrageous claims, yet when someone asks you to prove them, you pretend that these questions of fact, have not been put to you. Why won't you answer questions of fact, regarding the claims you make, and provide evidence to support your claims? You state so easily how true all of these things are, yet you go out of your way to avoid offering evidence.

"In short, you will never be willing to accept anything I or others have been telling you about history, archaeology and the Bible."

I am still awaiting evidence from the archeological record which proves the slaughter of the innocents, under Herod occurred. I am still awaiting archeological evidence which proves an Egyptian pharoah died in the middle of a parted Red Sea. And you are still pretending that these questions have not been posed to you. You offer no evidence, because there is none. So why are you saying in this forum these things are true? Prove it! I am still waiting.

There are two kinds of people who make claims, those who can support their claims with factual evidence, and those who can not. Which are you?









I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

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 ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by Linuster on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

And I suppose there is no evidence that Herod lived, or a Pharoah (because they're in the Bible), or that the Jews even existed.

Come on, get some education. No historian today disputes the fact that Jesus lived. What they dispute is whether or not the Gospels portray him accurately. Even Thomas Jefferson, a deist, believed the EXISTANCE of Jesus.

And the Bible is not entirely a 'religious myth.' Pick up a decent secular book on world civilization, and you will read that much of the Bible lines up with secular history. Historians only challenge its supernatural claims.


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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Who has questioned Herod's existence? Who says Pharoah's didn't exist? I tell you what, point to one archeological example of the slaughter of the innocents, where Herod had all male children under the age of 2 killed, as is stated in the Jesus myth. Oh wait, there is none. Why is that? How is it that we have archeological evidence which proves the bubonic plague occurred in the middle ages. How is it that we have archeological evidence that proves Mt Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD and destroyed the city of Pompeii? But when Herod orders all male children killed, under the age of 2, the archeological record is completely silent to this disaster? Why is that? Why did NO ONE, not a SINGLE PERSON, write of a disaster of this scale? How did it go completely unnoticed by those who lived at that time?

Even better, point to one example in the archeological record which proves an Egyptian Pharoah was killed when the Red Sea was parted. Oh wait, you can't do that. No such evidence exists. The history of Egypt is extremely well documented, yet the archeological record is completely silent on the issue of a Pharoah dying in the middle of a parted sea. Why is that? All of Egypt just failed to notice one of their Pharoah's died when a sea was parted? How convenient.

Furthermore, why does your god, who claims to be just and loving, tell the Hebrews to take slaves from the nations that surround them? Why does your allegedly just god then proceed to give one set of laws for treatment of Hebrew slaves, and then issue an entirely different set of laws for non-Hebrew slaves, thus institutionalizing racism? How is this just? How is this loving? Why does your god order that all adulterer's were to be stoned to death, with his loving just self? Why does your just god have no concept of the punishment must fit the crime, when it comes to adultery? Please explain this.

Why does your god, who is supposedly all seeing and knowing, state that he is a jealous god in the ten commandments? Are we to believe that an all powerful & all knowing god is fatally flawed with one of the absolute worse character traits of humanity, such as jealousy? Please explain these things and provide evidence in the archeological record which proves the previously mentioned myths actually occurred. All of Kde-Look awaits the imminent imparting of your oh so grand and oh so factual and true knowledge on these issues.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

-
.

 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by Linuster on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Since the site won't actually let me reply to timPLEZdrown527's followup to my prior posting, I will reply here.

timPLEZdrown527 has switched his thesis. At first he claimed that Jesus did not exist. I cite him below:

"Provide a piece of historical or archeological evidence that Jesus existed. Oh that's right. You can't. There is none."

That is what my post was addressing. Now, he is only attacking the events supposedly surrounding the existance of Jesus as recorded in the Gospel.

Also, where did I say that the Christian God was "my" God?

His criticism of the usage of "jealous" in relationship to God in the OT is classic and can be found on pratically any atheist website. Maybe the translation doesn't quite capture the idea, so let me commentate. If there really is an all-powerful God, and the people that he made are communing with idols instead of him, then you would expect him to be a little upset. That is why God is "jealous".



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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

...and there is a *huge* difference between the perverted sort of jealousy of man and the righteous Jealousy of God.

Our feelings, such as anger, etc., are somewhat twisted by the effects of sin resulting from the fall, which effects everyting we say and do to one degree or another.

God is not polluted by this.

-- tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html


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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

So Linuster, answer the rest of the post please. You told me to get educated. I am waiting for you to educate me. Explain why there exists no archeological evidence for the slaughter of the innocents under Herod. Explain why there is no archeological evidence for an Egyptian Pharaoh dying in the middle of a parted Red Sea.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Come on timbrown527. Surely you can do better than this. You stated earlier, you believe it because it is true. I have asked on what basis you find it to be true and have raised 6 issues which question the truth of what you believe:

1. Why is there no archeological evidence for the slaughter of the innocents under Herod?

2. Why is there no archeological evidence for a Pharoah dying in the Red Sea?

3. How can a just and loving god order the Hebrews to take slaves from the surrounding nations?

4. How can a just and loving god provide 2 different sets of rules for the treatment of slaves based on race, thus institutionalizing racism?

5. Why does a just and loving god order that all adulterers are to be stoned to death, abdicating the concept of the punishment must fit the crime?

6. How can an all knowing & all powerful god have the worse trait of humanity, being jealous?

You have only addressed one of the 6 issues, and for that one issue you have no archeological evidence, or any other evidence, to support what you have claimed. You have only given your opinion, which is not evidence. Why do you leave the other 5 issues unanswered? Is it because you have no answers? You have ignored some of these issues after having been asked about them three times now. If you are so absolutey and completely sure of the truth of what you believe, why do you continue dodging these issues? You make the claim that the entire Bible is true. I would think you would welcome the oppurtunity to prove it. Instead you do nothing but dodge a wonderful oppurtunity, which might end up converting others, once you have provided evidence of the truth of your beliefs. So where is the proof? Why are you not forthcoming with proof?


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by kaha on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

timPLEZdrown527, if the history of ancient Egypt is so well chronicled, where is it written who built the great pyramid. It's construction is attributed to Cheops (Khufu), but this is an educated guess. Stones found with his cartouche on them are known forgeries, and there are no hieroglyphs on the walls.

My point is that the history is not as seamless as you seem to believe.

As far as the bible and archeology go, the ruins of several ancient cities have been located almost solely on the biblical description of their locations, one example being Ur of the Chaldeans, the existance of which had previously been considered a fairy tale.



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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"if the history of ancient Egypt is so well chronicled, where is it written who built the great pyramid. It's construction is attributed to Cheops (Khufu), but this is an educated guess. Stones found with his cartouche on them are known forgeries, and there are no hieroglyphs on the walls."

I posed no questions regarding pyramids. Read the above posts to see what questions were posed and please stick with the issue, or either state evidence, based on the archeological record, how the entire nation of Egypt, and all who lived within it, just happened to miss the fact that a Pharoah died in the middle of a parted Red Sea. Please explain how such a miraculous event was recorded nowhere and discussed by no one, and given that this is the case, how the myth it is based on, can now be considered factual. Read carefully the question that was asked, then pose your answer based on the question that was asked please.

Man, I love how these people try to avoid the subject at hand, by changing the topic. I wonder why they might do that? Seems the simplest thing to do would be the answer the question by supplying evidence, since all these claims they make are so obviously true. But once you press them on it, you find out quickly, it really is not that simple for them to prove these things are true.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by kaha on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"Please explain how such a miraculous event was recorded nowhere and discussed by no one, and given that this is the case, how the myth it is based on, can now be considered factual."

My point was that the great pyramid was obviously constructed (it's there, right?), but this "miraculous event was recorded nowhere and discussed by no one". Or at least, we have to date uncovered no such accounts. We have the stories related to us by Herodot, among others, told to him by locals, millenia after the fact.

So, you see: I am sticking to the question posed.

"Read carefully the question that was asked, then pose your answer based on the question that was asked please."

You're pretty damned condescending for someone with a plank in their eye.
But then, making up a login ID just to ridicule somebody with different views than your own is pretty childish.

BTW, I'm neither a christian nor a creationist.

Have a great day. :)



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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by Linuster on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"So Linuster, answer the rest of the post please.... Explain why there exists no archeological evidence for the slaughter of the innocents under Herod."

No, I won't play your game. Remember what I posted in reply to:

"Provide a piece of historical or archeological evidence that Jesus existed. Oh that's right. You can't. There is none."

Since that is an absurd statement, I felt I had to reply to it. But then, all of a sudden you imputed to me the belief that there is historical evidence for the "slaughter of innocents." You put words in my mouth.

Maybe you're right. Perhaps the "slaughter of innocents" never did occur. I don't claim to know of historical evidence regarding that. All I claimed to know is that Jesus EXISTED.

As for my reference to Pharoah and Herod: I was simply drawing an analogy. You accept the existance of the other characters that historians accept; therefore you should also accept the existance of Jesus (existance does not imply that he was a supernatural person). But you do not, or at least don't know what you believe, as the above quote demonstrates.



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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"Since that is an absurd statement,"

How is it an absurd statement to claim there is no evidence that Jesus existed?

Let me show you how it is done. I make the claim Jesus never existed. Now, having made that claim, I must offer evidence to prove it. Perhaps you have heard of the scholar Bruce Metzger, who authored the book, ""The Text of the New Testament-- Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration?" In his book, he addresses

1.Errors arising from faulty eyesight
2.Errors arising from faulty hearing
3.Errors of the mind
4.Errors of judgement
5.Clearing up historical and geographical difficulties
6.Alterations made because of doctrinal considerations

So there is one scholar who does not believe Jesus ever existed. So much for your claim that my statement is absurd.

Allow me to make another claim. The historians who recorded history at the time of Christ, had little interest in recording facts of history, some going even so far as to distort the facts of history for their own aims. Now, having made that claim, I must offer evidence to support it.

In Eusubias' book, "Ecclesiastical History," vol 8, chapter 2, he writes, "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."
In Eusubias' "Praeparatio Evangelica," in book 12, chapter 32 he includes a chapter titled, ""How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived"

So please explain to me again how the statement, "Jesus never existed is absurd?." Please explain to me again why we should trust the recordings of these ancient historians.

And finally, please do explain how offering evidence to support my claims, and requiring others to offer evidence to support their claims, is a game?
I am most definitely interested in what twists of logic you will have to create to jump through this one.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by Linuster on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

I so often hear of scientists who say that a denial of the theory of evolution is 'absurd.' But there are creationists, and some of them have doctorates in a field of science. Does that automatically mean that a belief in creationism is 'not absurd,' because some people subscribe to it?

Just because one person believes something doesn't mean that it is no longer absurd. There are people in the world right now who believe that adult-child sexual relationships can be beneficial and should be legalized. However, just because a few people believe this doesn't keep it from being absurd. If that were the case, then it would also be impossible for you to claim that Christianity is 'absurd,' as you implicitly have.

You can find scholarly support for just about any position you can dream up. But the majority of historians are not denying the existance of Jesus, or Mohammad, or Buddha.



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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by Linuster on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"And finally, please do explain how... requiring others to offer evidence to support their claims, is a game?"

It isn't a game. What I refered to as a "game" was your requiring me to offer evidence for a claim I did not make, namely that the Slaughter of Innocents really occured.

"The historians who recorded history at the time of Christ, had little interest in recording facts of history...."

Eusebias didn't live "at the time of Christ". He wrote after the Council of Nicea, in the time of Constantine.



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 Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 22 2003
 
Score 50%

"I so often hear of scientists who say that a denial of the theory of evolution is 'absurd."

That's because a denial of the theory of evolution is absurd. The mountain of evidence supporting evolution can not be overturned and underpins the majority of the sciences, including biology & geology, whereas the only evidence for supporting creationism is a book of fable that claims snakes and donkeys speak:

1. Numbers 21:28 "And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? "

2. Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

And what is the definition of the word
fable? According to Merriam-Websters it is as follows:

"a narration intended to enforce a useful truth; especially : ONE IN WHICH ANIMALS SPEAK AND ACT LIKE HUMAN BEINGS"

So yes, any scientist who believes creationism is absurd, by definition, and are denying well over a century of collected evidence which supports the theory of evolution. Think about it, if a scientist denied the theory of gravity, is that absurd? Of course it is. If a scientist denies the theory of electricity is that absurd? Of course it is. It is even moreso absurd when you realize the entire basis for their denial of these theories is based entirely on a book of fable, that totally destroys the facts of history left and right, as when Daniel errs in the succession of Persian kings.

No one here has yet to offer any evidence that Jesus ever even existed. I mean he was this great miracle worker, so where is the evidence for his existence in the archeological record? There should be MUCH evidence in the archeological record for his existence, given the miraculous things he did, yet such evidence does not exist, in the same way it does not exist for Buddha feeding a multitude of people with a basket of cakes. Further, you claim, "But the majority of historians are not denying the existance of Jesus, or Mohammad, or Buddha."

Where? Who? What are their names? Do you have a study to support this? No, I didn't think so. You can not change the fact that the ancient historians did not investigate the gossip that they heard, they simply wrote the gossip down as true. But I forget, you know more than the scholars who have actually investigated the claims of the ancient historians and found them to lack credibility.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!

-

 Re: Re: Re: Re: re: 2 Th

 
 by timPLEZdrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

"archaelogy silenced the critics about King David of the Old testament really living"

According to who? What was the name of the archeologists who did this? Where did this information come from? Who is the author of this information? In what book did you find this? Oh that's right, you simply pulled this statement out of your behind, as you do on all of your wallpapers. How foolish of me to expect you to support a statement you make with facts.


I like to force my morals and religious opinions on everyone, at the most inappropriate of times and places, whether anyone wishes to hear them or not!
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

Sure! I'll be happy to do that for you. I'll have to look it up though; I don't have the information on hand. All I can give you right now was that the person who made the discovery regarding King David was Avraham Biran. I think this was in 1993, but I'll have to check.

Same for the others. But, again, I'll be happy to!

Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

Reply to this

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 nice message

 
 by masterpikx on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

i really dont like the wallpaper...but i like the message. now its my wallpaper


Reply to this

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 Re: nice message

 
 by timbrown527 on: Nov 21 2003
 
Score 50%

That's ok, the message is the most important part anyway...:)

Thanks!
Tim


Christ is my LIFE...
The rest is just trumpets...(oh, and Linux!)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjbrown527/atheisttest.html

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