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Not In My Name

KDE Wallpaper 1280x1024

Score 29%

bongo

Link: http:// Downloads: 406	Submitted: Feb 12 2003
Description: Wallpaper with a message. The majority seem to find the concept offensive so I won't be starting a series of them, but as requested, here is a 12801024 [actually I made a mistake, it's 12001024 but I'll sort it in a bit]. If you want to make a comment about the wallpaper look at the 1024*768 version, read those comments first, and stick it at the bottom. Thanks.

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Sigh...

by friedmud on: Feb 13 2003

Score 50%

friedmud

As much as I wanted to stay out of this conversation - I just can't...

I will not try to tell you how you should feel about the situation - because you can never change peoples minds just by telling them too. Instead I will just give you guys some reasons why I think our actions (or plans) are justified.

First let's talk about the differences between Iraq and N. Korea. Something that has been brought up a lot lately is a question of "why don't we wage war on N Korea instead of Iraq?". There are many reasons - but the most obvious one is that we still have diplomatic channels to explore with N Korea while Iraq is a ROGUE STATE - with a rogue dictator.

There is no convincing Saddam. He does not come to Washington DC and sit down and chat with our president. He doesn't speak at the UN and leave himself open to questions and ridicule. He just hides away in Iraq and creates weapons with which he wages war on whomever he doesn't like.

Next we should look at what the UN Security Council's job is - and how it will be effected if we do not act. Just TODAY - this morning in fact - International agencies flagged N Korea as having violated one of their UN agreements as well as several international treaties (because some new missiles were discovered). What happens now? Well, N Korea's case in the UN has been escalated to the Security Council so that they can recommend "punishment" - and or come up with new resolutions. What Iraq is doing is showing N Korea that you don't have to follow UN resolutions because none of the nations will have the balls to actually back them up with force - basically taking all of the power out of the UN, and out of the Security Council.

This is bad for EVERY NATION on this planet, and indeed EVERY PERSON. Just as has been pointed out by several representatives of countries in the UN over the last week, this sort of powerless international body has been seen before: it was called the League of Nations. Indeed, since you want to talk about Nazis so much you should realize that a weak internation peace keeping organization is the thing that first allowed the Nazis to do what they did.

Wet Noodle policies that look good until they come under heat aren't good for anyone.

Ok - I think this post is plenty long enough. I won't go over any other reasons. Before you flame me though, realize that I was against going to war with Iraq for a long time myself. I am not quick to send people off with guns to kill/get killed. But when it comes to world peace, someone has to do something about rogue nations/dictators - or else no one will ever get to sleep at night.

Finally, I would just like to say that THIS is NOT the place for these types of posts. If you want to have a discussion - and post inflamatory stuff - go start yourself a weblog. By looking at the amount of support you got from people around here, it looks like you could get quite a few readers....

Reply to this

War - sole solution

by anonymous on: Feb 13 2003

Score 50%

inactive user

Yes it's true. War is the sole imaginable solution in the Iraque Crises. As we all know the Iraque still has loads of WMD and that Saddam Hussein is one of the greatest supporters of islamic fundamentalist activists and terrorists. And just with his latest message (as Powell pointet out) Osama reveals the strong Bonds between his devotet fighters for God and the ... ups did he say unholy/godless? ... government of Iraque.

How could Al'Quaida attack the US without the Weapons donatet so unreserved by Saddam? And he could give those Terrorists more cardboard-cutters any day.

No its not about unthankfullnes towards the US for helping Europe to turn down Hitler even though I have to live with the results of the eye-for-an-eye-and-tooth-for-a-tooth mentality when the War was long won but one still had to bomb historical City cores to ashes for no reason other than to pay back for German crimes. But I rather live with that loss than under a Nazi Regime.

Its not about hating the USA or their People, way of live, economical, scientific or political achievements. I also dont want to rage against US-foreign policies even though sometimes they are disputable.

I also don't reason about "Why War on Iraque and not against North Korea?" especially because war on North Korea currently wouldn't be the best solution anyway although I think that one has to cope with North Corea urgently considering that according to US-Intelligence reports North Corean Missiles might be able to reach Parts of the US. I dont think NC really wants to attack the US they probably just want to use their weapon potential to blackmail the US into further economic aid, a pattern that seemed to have worked before during the Clinton administration. One still has to deal with it though.

Its not about being for or against the US or friend or enemy, "The Old Europe" is neither Enemy of nor standing against the US.

Its just the assassment of the current situation. Is Irque really a threat to the US and or other Countries? Their Army has been decimated as have been their Weapons in the last Gulf War. Even back then Iraque had not the slightest means to withstand the Nato Forces freeing Kuwait. US and British Fighter Jets are patroling Day and Night. U2's will be allowed to monitor Iraque. Are they a military threat? I dont think so. And if they make the slightest move to turn into one it will by far not be to late to stop them.

Does their example show that UN-Resolutions are worthless? I dont think any Country wants to be in the Situation Iraque is in right now, defied by the western world with harsh sanctions imposed on them and more military in their front garden than ever before. No one can say that Bagdads disregard for UN-Snctions has been without consequences so far.

Do they cooperate with Terrorists? Obviously no more very likely even less than others like the PLO. Has there been a single evidence that Iraque has given or offered or responded to requests for chemical biological or nuclear Weapons or Weapon know-how to terrorist organisations? None that I know of, none that Powell could present to the UN.

No Iraque is no well governed country, most of the People live in poverty and fear of rulers who terrorise their own People. If this is reason enough though for war against a country and if war would succesfully turn such countrys in sane democracies as it happend with Germany then we'd have to fight more wars than we possibly can.

But war against the Iraque is not likely to turn Iraque into a Country with a peaceloving democratic Government. If we look at Afganistan we will see how much effort it will still take for years to come to help them build up democracy. And right now these efforts might still fail (I hope they dont).

All in all I dont see how war against the Iraque will make the World more peacefull and secure (I even think it might just worsen the situation because right now Saddam has a lot of reasons not to use WDM or give them to Terrorists, since he knows that the next war against his Country will be the last for him what reasons would he have not to? What other serious conflicts will arise in that region?)

The current situation doesn't justify war, war will not really be helpful there are still other means to control the situation.

Is it really unthankfull to express that point of view and politically support it? Is it unfriendly towards the US? Is it an exprssion of hate? No, none of it. It is no more than serious consideration of what is the best for the world.

I dont blame others for contrary opinions all I do is to discuss in an fair manner. But in return I dont accept being denounced as unthankful and full of hate towards the US for having that opinion.

Reply to this

The posting above...

by gabelobe on: Feb 13 2003

Score 50%

gabelobe

is not supposed to be by anonymous but by gabelobe.

Reply to this

Iraq thang

by anonymous on: Feb 13 2003

Score 50%

inactive user

The present iraq situation pretty much boils down to one single thing in everyones minds; does Saddam have WMD.

In the US, it is overwhelming believed that he has. Over here, in Europe, the opposite is true.

Ignoring the fact that he was armed entirely by the US, (and did used to visit Washington to have chats with the president. He made the mistake of offering support to terrorist groups against Israel, and so lost US support, instigating what the Arabs call the 'second war for oil'), we over here seriously think that he would have no means with which to gather weapons.

He has been severaly ostracised by his neighbours, who all fear US retaliation, so no support there.

The UN weapons inspectors wiped out what they believed to be almost all of his weapons between 1991 and 1998.

The Gulf war never actually ended. The UK alone has been spending �4 million a week, (I think, might be a month - better check), continuing the bombing. You can imagine how much more the US has spent. As one of the US Airforce Spokesmen put it 'we're down to bombing their outhouses'. i.e. THEY HAVE NOTHING LEFT.

After the war, it was decided to impose sanctions. The UN stated that $8 billion a day was required to feed the people, only. No electricity, no healthcare or education. Only food. The US, being as benevolent as they are, capped that at $4 billion. i.e. Half the country would starve. Actually that hasn't happened. Those in power have hoarded the food. 70% of Iraqi women are anaemic, and 3 out of 5 children don't live to see their 5th birthday. These figures are from the UN.

This 'oil for food' program gets worst. The US gets the oil very very cheaply, (lucky people), and the program doesn't include any form of medicine. There were two factories in Iraq that were producing medicines, mostly paracetamol, asprin, and insulin. Because they 'could' be used to produce chemical/biological weapons, the US bombed them. Now there are no medicines at all, (exactly the same as in Sudan a while back. But you're not at war with them officially). One of the reasons people point out that Saddam, (or more accurately, normal Iraqis), try to break the embargo, is that they'll die if they don't.

Colin Powells presentation was also meant to prove that Saddam had WMD. Interestingly, it has been pointed out by US officials, that his evidence was so flimsy and circumstancial, that it wouldn't stand up in either a military or civilian court of law. As yet, no solid evidence has been produced. He refers to the fantastic document produced by the British, (which we know now was a complete scam, causing uproar and scandal). He pointed out two chemicals weapons factories, (in a previous post I proved that one of them was a media centre, the other was a bakery. As Bush knows, Pretzels can be very very dangerous). The shells that they found were actually mentioned in the Iraqi report and were therefore not a breach. However, one shell was found to have VX in it by the Americans. Confirmation studies however, showed that it wasn't the case, a fact that didn't receive enough publicity. So as far as we Europeans are concerned, Powell and the US Administration have no legs left to stand on. We can thoroughly and accurately discredit all of their 'smoking guns'. Elbaradei so far has come across 'no evidence whatsoever of any nuclear activity', (paraphrase). So it is evident that Saddam poses no threat. Except to his people, who have wanted to get rid of him for years, but weren't able to because we were too busy suppressing them for Saddams own benefit. If you want a people to rise against their evil dictator, you don't starve them to death. And you certainly don't bomb them.

Worst of all, we over here are completely bemused as to why so many Americans completely believe everything they are told. It's upsetting! Please remove the rose-tinted spectacles with which you see the world. Nothing is EVER black and white, and you aren't always the good guys. You are the only nation on earth that hasn't admitted yet that depleted uranium is very very dangerous. Since 1993, 500 000 Iraqi children have died of leukemia and lung cancer - directly attributed to the uranium. Hell, in Afghanistan, you didn't even used depleted uranium! The US used URANIUM. Now 70% of the population of Kabul have bodies 3 times or more, more radioactive than the international maximum.

I have much more to say on the matter, and that of North Korea, (I study this stuff for a living), but I'll spare you all and give you a good chance to take a sideswipe at my insensibilities and my inability to absorb propoganda.

Santa

Reply to this

Before anyone says

by santa on: Feb 13 2003

Score 50%

santa

it...!

Yeah, yeah, as someone who believe that war at this point is nothing short of murder whilst other channels are still open, I was rather upset to read that Saddams "Al Samoud" missiles just break the resolutions and will hopefully be destroyed. Saddam doesn't have a leg to stand on at the moment, and if he refuses to comply that will be an interesting insight into his lunacy.

It is important to note that these missiles are not WMD, they are conventional missiles, and previously allowed, (also by the US), because they are only ground to ground missiles with limited range, (the maximum limit is 150km, although one has managed to fly 183km, hence the need to destroy them).

Thought I'd get this in before any claimed casus belli.

Santa

Reply to this

Apologies

by santa on: Feb 13 2003

Score 50%

santa

It has recently been pointed out to me that I am too self-righteous! I must admit that reading my own comments, I agree entirely! :) I suspect that I should have put more thought into what I wrote, and I shouldn't have been incensed so easily at other people arguing from a point I believe to be of ignorance. Looks like this thread has ended pretty much anyway, but if I caused upset to anyone in any way, I apologise.

Santa

Reply to this

Tapping...

by gabelobe on: Feb 13 2003

Score 50%

gabelobe

...Santas shoulder. Good to know that people who know lots more about that region can share facts that little uninformed ones like me tried to come close to, deducing them by logic.

Reply to this

Reasonable....

by friedmud on: Feb 14 2003

Score 50%

friedmud

Hey,

I just wanted to say that your reply to my above message was very reasonable and level headed. You laid out your points clearly, and did not flame or sensationalize. Made for a good read.

On a final note, I might say that _I_ am actually one of the MINORITY of Americans that DON'T believe everything we see. I understand what you are talking about when you say most Americans just take their info for granted - it is terrible and we (my friends and I, and some of my professors) talk about it all the time.

That being said.... A BUNCH of people (the majority I think) in the US DO NOT WANT WAR. There have been protests like crazy - even one here at my University. This country is NOT pro war and (as I pointed out earlier) neither am I. But sometimes we have to roll up our sleeves and just get the shit done - whether or not this is a situation where that needs to be done is debateable...

But like I was saying, we ended up having a good discussion around here (another thread was not so good). Thanks for the comments.

Derek

Reply to this

Campus Life?

by anonymous on: Feb 14 2003

Score 50%

inactive user

If you judge the pulse of America by what you see and hear on campus you are very misguided.
Our universities are often filled with those longing for a utopian socialist society where America
is bad and everyone else is good. Im not trying to dis you, but simply inform you that your thoughts
on a variety of issues will change once you grow up and remove yourself from this liberal bubble in
our society. Our movie stars fall prey to the same situation. That is,stuck in a bubble where
opposing view points are not expressed openly. Ironically,in America our most liberal and
anti-American citizens are often those that have been blessed the most by this nation. Is it
guilt? I wish you the best with your studies. Plese take what you hear from others that are often
envious of our success with a grain of salt. They are experiencing high unemployement and difficulty
competing in the global market place. They are taxed heavily. Capitalism will win out over socialism every
time. Remember,your professors may have an agenda. Question their motives and view points. Ask them outright
if they believe in the capitalist system. If not, ask them why they do not use their freedom to move somewhere
else? Ask them to give the name of a country that has done more to better the world than the US and prove it.
Ask them what have they have done personally/financially to help those in need. Remember, Al Gore? He talked
a lot about helping others in need. However, his tax return showed an income of 6 million and only $50.00 given
to charity. Sorry for the rant and I do wish you the best.

Reply to this

Hello there

by santa on: Feb 14 2003

Score 50%

santa

I suspect that semantics are causing a lot of the problems we face when discussing these issues across the atlantic.

For example, your version of Socialism is dramatically different than mine. To me, Communism is the antithesis of Capitalism, and as such, the world has never seen true Communism. You compare Socialism as an opposite to Capitalism, but over here, Socialism is Capitalism with Social Responsibility, (something the US is famed for not having - you have to look no further than healthcare and education for the poor, the slackening of environmental rules, etc).

Europe is Capitalist, we don't deny it. But we have more rights and freedoms than you Americans, and our companies/corporations are held more accountable for their actions. The US government argues against this as they claim regulation destroys free trade, but the bottom line of free trade is the profit motive, and that brings out the worst in every corporation. So European Capitalism is much more beneficial to society as a WHOLE, not just the top 5%.
Socialism is Capitalism with a safety net. The poor, and the defenceless are looked after by the government/society, and allowed to improve their lot. In a truely capitalist society, this is not the case. Indeed, those in power, and those with wealth maintain their position at the expense of the poor.

So you see that given my outline of what we perceive real socialism to be, it really isn't the bogeyman the US makes it out to be. But current US politics has simply replaced the threat of Communism, with the threat of Socialism. Neither are, or ever were threats.

Santa

Reply to this

Semantics

by anonymous on: Feb 14 2003

Score 50%

inactive user

You have it nearly correct. What you call a "safety net" we call a hammock for those not willing
to work. What you call "industrial responsibility" we call governmental interference. Where you are
wrong is that in America we do have a true "safety net". If a person in our country is truely in
need, we have countless programs to assist them until they can get back on their feet. The key here
is that we believe in helping one to help themselves, not a hand out. It is our belief that one is
not helped by giving handouts. In the long term, this only develops a dependancy on others and keeps
them inslaved to it. I live in a country where one can jump on a raft and float over for the best health
care in the world. Case and point, a Jamican women floated over here recently needing a transplant. Our "safety net" gave
this women the best care the world has to offer at a cost to the state of Florida of 3 million dollars.
Keep in mind that this is not even a citizen of our country. We are not perfect, we do have problems. For examply,
our liberal trial attorneys want to sue our doctors for things that are not a result of their negligence. This
unnecessary litigation causes our health care cost to rise. Also, we could learn from (God forbid) Cananda and
create large private insurance pools to give them the power to negotiate lower prescription medication prices.
Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, people tend to take advantage of these "safety nets". What I
feel we have in this country is the best compromise. A system that helps those truely in need, but provides the necessary
incentives to better oneself and move off this assistance. In our country we believe that all our citizens can achieve
greatness. Not just those furtunate enough to be born into a previlege family or those with luck. White, black or immigrant.
With hard work all can obtain prosperity. I thank God that I live in a country where someone can move here with no money and
do not speak the language and in a short time, own the business that they started off sweeping the floor in. Do not let
anyone mislead you. If your disabled or truely disadvantaged, you are guaranteed free or low cost health care and free education
through the undergraduate level. That sad fact is, that we tried it your way. We called it the "Great Society" programs that
included welfare and handouts. It is because of these programs that we made a portion of our society dependant upon handouts. It
convinced them that they were unable to achieve on their own. Sadly, many of them were people of color. We are in the process
now of lifting these people up and giving them the tools (education) they will need to succeed on their own. The fact of the matter
is, we do not force our citizens to go to college or even finish what we call high school. So we will always have people that do not
reach their full potential due to their own lack of inititive or unwillingness to work hard. This thread did get heated. We all
love our homeland. Unfortunately, mine is currently under attack by those that detest our freedom and our support for Israel.
I wish all well no matter where you call home.

Reply to this

Almost

by santa on: Feb 14 2003

Score 50%

santa

I admire your reponse, but why is it that 1 out of 10 US families can't afford education AND healthcare for the kids? That's a ridiculous choice to have to make. The minimum wage in the US is so low that people unfortunate enough to be on it often have to hold down two jobs.

Admittedly, the incredibly high costs are influenced by the 'litigation culture' that permeates US society, but that cannot be singled out as the only factor.

Interestingly, (and I know you will not believe this at face value, but I invite you to check it out), Cuba has a better healthcare system than the US. Healthcare for all. There is no need for private healthcare, the national system is very advanced. Indeed, Cuba gives more medicines to the third world than the US does, and is the largest exporter of doctors/nurses on temporary schemes in the world.

Socialism doesn't mean giving handouts to people that don't want to work. Socialism means that people have choice. In the US, if you can't afford education, how can you get good job prospects? How can you get better jobs? How can your children get better jobs? There is an entire generation trapped at the bottom of the labour market. Indeed, that is sadly also the situation here in the UK.

Even in a socialist society, life would be significantly better if you contributed to it, usually by having a job. Handouts are just enough to live on, to tide you over. What would happen in the US if you fell chronically ill, and lost your job. If you are some of the 20% of the population without medical insurance, what happens? What safety net?

You said "we believe that all our citizens can achieve greatness". I'm not so sure. The largest gap between rich and poor in the western world is in the US. The poorest people in the western world are also in the US. However, the largest economy in the world, (at the moment) is the US, and the richest people as well. US society seems to be set up to benefit the rich.

I have to say, the whole point of Bongos backdrop was because it exposes a lot of US hyprocrisy. Yes, you do have more freedoms than the majority of the world. But the thing that bites most, is not that people hate you for your freedom, but that the US refuses to allow them to have freedom as well. Please read the banner again. Israel is an interesting case, because pretty much the entire government is composed of UN stated war-criminals. The Israeli government and army have broken more UN declarations and resolutions than anyone else in the world. They have freely admitted killing more civilians than Saddam ever had the capability to. Who is the greater threat to democracy and world peace? Israel or Saddam? I think Israel gets my vote, and the majority of the world outside the US would probably agree with me.

I see no need for a war, and I think this article says everything;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2404843,00.html

"UN finds no WMD" - following from Blix and ElBaradei's report.

Death is a waste of life, no matter who the victims are.

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Not In My Name

KDE Wallpaper 1280x1024

Sigh...

War - sole solution

The posting above...

is not supposed to be by anonymous but by gabelobe.

Iraq thang

Before anyone says

Apologies

Tapping...

...Santas shoulder. Good to know that people who know lots more about that region can share facts that little uninformed ones like me tried to come close to, deducing them by logic.

Reasonable....

Campus Life?

Hello there

Semantics

Almost